Rebecca:
a bank can be a coach for you. It can be someone on the team.
Sam:
Welcome to the Women on the Move Podcast from JPMorgan Chase. I'm Sam Saperstein. Women on the Move is a global initiative at the bank. It's designed to help women grow their businesses, improve their financial health, and build their careers.
In our last episode, we talked to [Elaine Meyers 00:00:00:33], whose focus on meeting her client's needs led her to be named one of the top wealth managers in the country.
Today, we'll speak with Rebecca Bullene. She's the founder of Greenery NYC, a botanical design company. Rebecca's path to launching her own business is fascinating, and you'll hear all about it in this episode. Rebecca, would love to hear about your career background.
Rebecca:
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. And I think I've had a really interesting career path. My business, Greenery NYC, is all about large-scale plant installations. And we're mostly focused in New York City, though we occasionally do work outside of the City. And I came to it in a really roundabout way. I should start really at the very beginning, which is that I love plants, and I've always loved plants. I've always had a really deep affinity to nature. Some of my earliest memories are of being a toddler and looking at my mother's lilies. I can really see a lot of milestones in my life as being plant-centric.
When I turned 18, I had this great feeling that I wanted to move to New York City. And I just had that deep draw. Something magical about the City. And of course, plants don't jive with New York in my brain. And I really wanted that sort of Sex and the City experience. I thought, "Oh, I'm going to move to New York City, get an office job, wear a pencil skirt and high heels, and be fabulous." I've always been a really ambitious person. And I've always been a person that, when I set out to do something, I have that dream, I really want to achieve it. And part of that I actually attribute back, again, to nature. When I was growing up, I ran cross country. And I had a coach when I was growing up that would always say, "Attack the Hills." Right? That's the time that you gain ground. It's when everyone else is getting tired going up the Hills, that's when you put all your energy forward, and that's when you surge ahead. And that's always been one of my mantras.
So I managed to get a job at Random House, which was a dream come true. So I started there as an editorial and publishing assistant. So I was working with a publisher in the audiobook world. But this weird thing happened, where the higher I got on the ladder, the more miserable I became. And I woke up one day, and I went to my office. And at that point, I had a really awesome corner office, had assistants, I was getting bonuses, I was signing up major books, and I was crying. I was just sitting there crying after lunch, and I had to really ask myself, "Why am I so unhappy? This was the dream. I am like Carrie Bradshaw. I've got the pencil skirt. I've got the office. I've got all the things." And I really had to do that soul-searching to say, "Where's this coming from?" And I started making lists. What do you like to do, do you not like to do? And I really kept coming back to this idea of an interaction with nature.
A position opened up at Brooklyn Botanic Garden for an editorship. So they were looking for someone with pretty big editorial chops to work at the botanic garden. So they were going to launch a new website. They needed someone to essentially study with the curators there, who are the master gardeners, and then distill down all that information into articles, photography, books. So I essentially got hired for going to the best urban horticulture school of all time.
Sam :
This is like the perfect job you could ever imagine for you.
Rebecca:
Oh, it was amazing.
Sam :
Publishing background, focusing on content all around plants in New York City, in a landmark of New York City.
Rebecca:
I know. And it was a $30,000 pay cut from what I had been making.
Sam :
Oh goodness.
Rebecca:
Yeah. So I was like, "Okay. Well, I just have to get a bunch of roommates and [crosstalk 00:07:14] apartment and eat spaghetti. This is what's going to have to happen. And then after I go through this process" ... Because there, it was a finite thing. Right? Once the website launches, then I'll reassess what is my role here and what I'm going to be doing.
Sam :
Sounds great, a period of time where you knew there was a limit to it.
Rebecca:
Yeah. And when I had been working at the botanic garden, I started moonlighting on nights and weekends. So I was doing garden design and some horticultural work for some high-net-wealth individuals, some board members, people that would come into the garden that would ask, "Oh" ... They'd see me puttering around the Rose garden and say, "Oh, would you be interested? Would you come help me? My roses are suffering."
Sam :
So that's a really interesting first connection with clients and potential clients. So you use the current job you're in to connect with people who just come to the garden. And they would start asking you questions and then would hire you on the side privately to advise them.
Rebecca:
Yep. This is what you had to do if you were going to work in a nonprofit institution. Right? I was going to have to keep freelancing. I was going to have to find private clients. I was just going to have to make this work.
One day, I was working for, at that time, one of the creative directors on their private space. And then I was like, "Yeah, I think I could make this a business," although at that time I had no idea what to charge. And actually, the wife of the director pulled me aside one day, is like, "I don't actually know how you're doing this. You're not charging us enough." And that was just one of those mind-blowing things. I was like, "Is she actually telling me I should charge them more?" Because I had still had that deep guilt of charging people money for horticultural skill. It seemed like something I should just be doing for the goodness of my heart and to make people connected to nature. And she was just really one of ... I don't think she knew it at the time, but hugely influential in my mind, being like, "Oh, people will pay $50 an hour, $85 an hour, $100 an hour for this kind of skill?"
Sam :
[crosstalk 00:08:54] Really important, the value of work. How do you set that? How do you have the confidence to ask for that? What would you tell other people who are thinking about a business, other entrepreneurs, in terms of really understanding your value?
Rebecca:
I would say, particularly for female entrepreneurs, that's a huge issue, is how do you value your work? And I think that being on the other side of this, 10 years into this business, when I look back, I'm like, "Oh my God, I did so much free work. I wish I had known." And I think that it really starts with looking at the marketplace and doing some research. At the time, I didn't realize there were tons of people doing garden design in New York City at that point, tons of companies doing that. And while the information probably wasn't readily available online, I had enough connections. At that point, I should've been asking around to be like, "What's the going rate for an hour of garden maintenance? What do people charge to design a space?"
I operated in this vacuum of not asking for help and not really doing the due diligence of finding the information. So I set these rates for myself of what I thought people would pay, and it was wildly wrong because they would have paid way more. And it took years for me to build up the confidence. I think even for myself, getting that skillset and then building a portfolio to say, "I've really created spaces. Now, I actually have value." Now when people approach me, we have set minimums that seem, to me, still really high, but it makes sense when you start to build operational costs. And I have 28 employees and all of these things. That's the sort of thing that you have to think about that I didn't really understand at the time, was how do you navigate this operational expense income, a balance sheet, figuring all of that stuff out? And I think that was a huge hurdle for me really for the first five years of the business.
I didn't have a business background. My parents were public school teachers. I never had access to entrepreneurs in my life. We would sit around the dining room table and talk about the moral lessons of Star Trek. We weren't talking about how- [crosstalk 00:10:40]
Sam :
Starting a business.
Rebecca:
-Started a business.
Sam :
So who helped you? Where did you find the resources?
Rebecca:
Well, honestly, I think there are a couple of places. So one is SCORE, which is a New York city institution that helps small businesses and sets them up with mentors. And that took me a long time to come to the realization that I should be seeking mentorship in this. And the other was honestly one of the biggest things that happened to me, was getting a good CPA. And I had been operating with a bookkeeper that wasn't great for a while, sort of a part time thing. I didn't really understand what my ... There was money in the bank account, and I was like, "Great. So I'm doing well." I didn't really understand it all.
And I finally, through SCORE, actually got introduced to a CPA who had more of a construction constituency. So he'd been working with a lot of companies and female-funded companies, female-owned businesses that worked in construction. And essentially, that's what gardening is at the end of the day. It's building things and is a construction business. So I met with him, and he took a look at my books. And he was just like, "Whoa. You are making money but you do not understand what you're doing, and these books are a mess. And quite frankly, if you don't start approaching getting a line of credit and thinking about some of these other things, you're going to put yourself out of business because the way that you run through capital isn't smart."
And I didn't really understand. I was like, "Well, what do you mean? There's money in the bank account." He's like, "Well, what happens when you land a $75,000 job and you need to buy the materials?" I was like, "Oh, well I get the client to buy the materials." He's like, "No, that's not generally ... When you get to the upper tier of construction, that's not usually how it works. You're going to have to be able to put some money in for that, and then wait for that to come back in 30 days." And I was like, "Oh." He's like, "Yeah, that's what the line of credit's for." I was like, "Line of credit? What's that?"
Sam :
Tell me more. So how did you discover what that was all about and then finally used one?
Rebecca:
So I reached out ... A friend of mine who had worked in the wedding planning business had been working with a coach, a business coach. And she introduced me. So I sat down with Holly, and she gave the exact same feedback that the CPA had given, which is like, "You are making money. This is a great business, but you are in a really serious phase right now of major growth. And if you don't have access to these things, you're going to be in big trouble a few months from now." And she's like, "Who are you banking with?" And I was like, "Well, I've been banking with Chase. I've had my personal accounts with them. And it just seemed natural I'd open my business accounts with them, and I have the Ink card."
She's like, "Well, you need to talk to them about a line of credit." And I was like, "I don't know who to talk to, and I don't think that they're going to give me money. I'm a lady in a garage with a gardening company." I just didn't think that anyone would give me capital. I thought I would have to take out multiple credit cards and figure that part out. And it really took someone to say, "You know what? Let me make an introduction. Why don't you just go in and meet them?"
Sam :
Did you think you had to be bigger or more established or something else?
Rebecca:
Yeah. I think maybe I thought I had to be bigger, but I also think at that time, I perceived myself in a weird way of, I was working out of a garage. I had dirty- [crosstalk 00:13:37].
Sam :
-your hustle.
Rebecca:
Yeah, hustling. Even though I had employees at that point and I had liability insurance and it was very street legal, I still had dirty fingernails and ripped jeans. And I was still flying by the seat of my pants. Even though bigger jobs were coming in, I felt like I was always ... Also that, I think, typical female thing of, "Maybe I'm a fraud. I don't really know what I'm doing here, so maybe I'm not real. And if I actually go and talk to a financial institution, they're going to expose me." [crosstalk 00:14:05].
Sam :
Someone will tell you that.
Rebecca:
They're going to be like-
Sam :
It's over.
Rebecca:
Yeah, it's over. "You can't run a business. You don't know what you're doing. Just close it down now and cut your losses."
So I think I was really scared of walking into a bank and I think I also had this perception from, I don't know, liberal upstate New York of banks being this evil, big institution, that it wasn't actually people working there. It was just this automatic thing, and there's just going to be a room full of old, white men being like, "No, no, no! No money for you!" So I just- [crosstalk 00:14:35].
Sam :
So I hope that was not your experience here.
Rebecca:
Not my experience at all.
Sam :
Okay. Good.
Rebecca:
So when I finally got the introduction, first and foremost, I was so impressed. They came to me. They came to my business. I didn't have to go to the bank. They were like, "We'd love to see your business."
Sam :
They do make house calls.
Rebecca:
Yeah. At that point, I was still working out of a garage. And I had actually just given birth to my son. So I had a little bassinet in the back of the garage, an employee. The space where I work is literally filled with dirt and plants. I mean, there's thousands of plants. And I was just trying my best to clean it up. [inaudible 00:15:05] maybe six weeks. I had my son there, and they came in. And I just was both embarrassed, but I was like, "I've got to do this." And it was just such a positive experience, A, that they would come there, and then ... [Geovanna 00:15:17] and [Sied 00:15:17], when they came, they were like, "This is so cool. What you do is so cool." And I was like, "You guys think so?" They were like, "Yeah, it's amazing. Why don't you show us your books?" And I was like, "Okay."
And I basically had prepared all the files. I had talked to a CPA. I knew what I needed to have printed. And I slid the papers over in the folder. And they looked at them, and they were like, "Wow, nice. Good work." I was like, "Oh my God."
Sam :
Relief.
Rebecca:
I'm really doing it. Wow. And that validation was huge for me, and it was a major step. And they were like, "Okay. So talk to us about what's coming next for you." And I just wanted someone to ask that question because I had so many ideas, and I knew what I wanted to do next. And I was like, "Well here's the thing, you see where I'm working. This is a crazy garage in Williamsburg. I need more space. I mean, if I have to hire more people, here's the thing." And I showed them the contracts that I had. I had these annuity maintenance contracts. So I have a lot of money coming in. I had been signing up big deals. I was like, "But I'm worried because I don't know that I can actually build these things here, and I've got to find a new space. But in order to do that, I need like $60,000 in a month or two."
Sam :
Did you ask for that at that very meeting?
Rebecca:
I did. I told them what I needed. And similarly to that early client, they were like, "You need more. You have to think about this. Yes, you probably do need to think about an SBA loan." And they explained to me what that was. But then they also were like, "You also need this line of credit. You're just looking at getting the space. You're not thinking this through of like getting these contracts and what that actually means for you. If you sign up a client, what does that actually mean for, A, producing those materials and, B, increasing staffing to meet those jobs? And then once you close those jobs, you're only going to get more jobs."
Sam :
[crosstalk 00:16:57].
Rebecca:
So that future thinking of, I've always been really scrappy. I've always been a little bit scared of debt. I never wanted to take on more than I can chew. And I think I also needed maybe permission from a financial expert to say, "Listen, you're doing a great job-"
Sam :
And you can do this.
Rebecca:
"And you can do this."
Sam :
You can afford this and that- [crosstalk 00:17:17]
Rebecca:
"And you can afford it. And it's a good idea. And listen, here's what the payment terms are. For you to be paying this amount of money a month with the income that you have coming in, this isn't crazy. But you need this access to capital."
Sam :
So Rebecca, when you were going for financing, you wanted to expand, so used also for new facilities. What else did you do with additional funds? How did you develop new products or innovate or go after new clients?
Rebecca:
Well, a big thing that Greener NYC does is this integration of technology with plants, which is ... Traditionally in this industry, people who love plants tend to shy away from technology. So when I started landing these bigger jobs, one of the big things in my industry that is a big hurdle is maintenance. Right? Everyone wants to have lots of plants surrounding them, but what's really hard is maintaining those plants. They're living beings, and they need care. And if you're going to bring them into the indoor environment, then a human's going to have to be able to provide those care.
So you will see these really beautiful walls that essentially are completely automated devices. They incorporate their own watering and grow lights. Really cool thing that I had developed essentially that I would have never been able to do if I hadn't met Geovanna and Sied that day and gotten the money to say, "Okay, cool. I want to build this thing." And I remember even probably at meeting number three, once they kept coming back to my office, which I was again very impressed ... They didn't make me go to the bank until the very end to sign the paperwork. But in meeting three, I started showing them the drawings and what I was talking about. And just, again, that belief of being like, "This is a really cool idea." Someone else completely outside the realm of plants or anything else being like, "We would want this. This would be great for the Chase offices. This is a really cool product. Yeah, you've got to go for it."
Sam :
Before we wrap up, I'm really just curious, what would you counsel other women who are thinking about starting new businesses to think about and do?
Rebecca:
Well, I think first and foremost is ask for help. I think that was something I was really reluctant to do when I first started my business. I think that I was both reluctant to look for where help was and then go ahead and ask for it. And I wish, now looking back, that I had discovered, as you said, that a bank can be a coach for you. It can be someone on the team. I remember early in my business walking around. I probably had $20,000 in checks, and I would just walk into a random Chase and deposit at the ATM. And now I have such a different relationship with the bank and my relationship with my advisor and everything else, that I wish that I had gone in earlier and been like, "Hey, I'm an entrepreneur. I want to find someone to build a relationship with who can help me understand my business."
And also just looking and seeking for mentorship. I think that if you don't come from a business background, it can feel really intimidating to start a business. It can be really hard to do because you don't even really know some of the very beginning steps. But there are so many people out there, and it's as easy ... I wish I had applied the ambition and everything that I did to achieve in my other careers that I did to starting my business. I wish I had been relentless in emailing other female entrepreneurs, being like, "How do I do it? Do you have time for a phone call? Can I just have 10 minutes of your time?" And I never did that. Again, I think I came from this place of, "I'm a fraud. They're going to know that I don't really know." And now, again, being on the other side of it, I love it when people reach out.
Rebecca:
Thank you so much for having me.
Sam :
Thanks to Rebecca Bullene. I can't wait to visit Greenery NYC and see firsthand how Rebecca's vision has come to life.
Over the course of this series, we've introduced you to leaders who bring our company's culture and values to life. Tune in for our next episode as we round out our first season with two of my close partners, [Racquel Oden 00:00:27:06] and [Toye Wigley 00:27:07].
On behalf of JPMorgan Chase's Women on the Move, I'm Sam Saperstein.
