Kerry Kennedy

Kerry Kennedy:

The way human rights abuses take place is under cover of dark. So, as soon as we start talking about them, as soon as people start becoming aware and organized around them, that's when you see the change happen.

Sam Saperstein:

Welcome to the Women On The Move podcast from JP Morgan Chase. I'm Sam Saperstein. Women On The Move is a global initiative designed to empower female employees, clients, and consumers to build their careers, grow their businesses, and improve their financial health. Each episode will feature successful and inspiring women who are breaking the mold. They're sharing their career journeys and leadership lessons, talking about their professional and personal goals, and making a difference in the lives of others. This season, I'm taking you to the world economic forum in Davos, Switzerland, where I caught up with many of the women who inspire me every day. In this episode, I'll introduce you to a lifelong human rights advocate. Kerry Kennedy is an author, philanthropist, and activist. She's the president of Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights and a sat on the board of directors for multiple organizations. In 2018, she published her most personal book to date, titled Robert F. Kennedy: Ripples Of Hope.

Sam Saperstein:

Kerry shares stories from incredible women who risked their own safety on behalf of others. She also talks about how she inspires advocacy in children. I was fortunate to spend time with Kerry at Davos and I hope you enjoy our conversation. So, thank you, Kerry, for joining us. We really appreciate your talking to our listeners.

Kerry Kennedy:

So happy to be here.

Sam Saperstein:

So you've really devoted your life to activism in many, many forms and you're very vocal still as a writer and a speaker and somebody who's traveling the world. How do you think about the issues that are most important to you and how do you prioritize those?

Kerry Kennedy:

Well, I'm driven by people, by people's stories, and by the ability of one person to make a difference and bringing many people together to really create social change. You know, I think in this world, so many people talk about how distressed they are and how much anxiety they have because of all of the terrible things we're facing from global warming to violence against women, and more. But I never internalized that and it's because I'm working every day with people who are the bravest human beings on earth. Women who face imprisonment or torture or death for basic rights we take for granted and they're winning. They're creating change, they're changing governments, they're holding governments accountable, they're stopping brutality, and they're getting more and more powerful and involved in businesses and more. And so that really gives me a sense of good cheer about the future.

Sam Saperstein:

It's a very hopeful message. So tell me about some of these women that you meet throughout your travels and some of the heroes that you have out there.

Kerry Kennedy:

Well, there are so many, but I wrote a book a few years ago called Speak Truth To Power and it's interviews with leading human rights defenders around the world. And one of them was this extraordinary woman from Mexico. She was a woman, she was a lawyer, she was indigenous, and she was one of the leading human rights defenders in that country. And I asked her how a typical case works. And she said, well, a few weeks ago a woman came to my office and said that her husband had been disappeared, had been kidnapped by the federal judicial police, and they were holding him and not admitting that they had him. And she said, "But I heard a rumor that he was being held at a military hospital, not far away."

Kerry Kennedy:

So she went to the military hospital and they wouldn't let her in. And I said, "What did you do?" And she said, "I waited until there was a shift change, and then I walked past the guards." And she said she walked up to the second floor and there was just one room that had a nurse standing outside the door. And she said, "So I went up to the nurse and I said, I'm going in there." And the nurse said, "You can't go in there. I can't even go in there. The [disappearsito 00:04:22] is in there." The guy who's been disappeared.

Sam Saperstein:

She found him.

Kerry Kennedy:

So she said, "That's my client," and she said to the nurse, "I'm going in." And she knew behind the door, would not only be the client, but also two guards who had beaten him so badly, he had to be hospitalized. And she had, herself, had been tortured. So she knew the brutality of it and she said, "I opened the door and with all the authority I could muster, I said, you get out of here right now. This is my client. I'm his lawyer and I get five minutes alone with him. And they left."

Sam Saperstein:

That's unbelievable.

Kerry Kennedy:

And so she signed him up as the lawyer. She got signed up as the lawyer and she was walking out and she said, "I turned around the corner and there came the two guards and they were ready to attack me." And I said, "What'd you do?" And she said, "I assumed the attack position. Hai," you know? And she got into this karate position. And she said, "They looked at me and said, you're going to attack us?" And I said, "Take it any way you please." And they were so shocked to see this woman and this nun and this indigenous person ready to attack and they backed off and she was able to escape-

Sam Saperstein:

Oh my goodness.

Kerry Kennedy:

... and go back to her office. And I said to her, "What was it at that moment that allowed you to walk into that room?" And I don't know what I was thinking. She'd say something about love or redemption or Jesus. But she said, "You know, I'm just so angry. And I'm so angry when I think about what they've done to me and to my family and my community and my country. And it gave me this incredible sense of calm with which I could confront anyone." And I think that message for women is so important because since we're little, little girls, we're told you're not angry. You don't feel that way.

Sam Saperstein:

You shouldn't be angry, right.

Kerry Kennedy:

Deny being angry, deny your anger. And anger is not a value. It's an emotion that is, that can be used for destructive purposes, but also for revolutionary change.

Sam Saperstein:

Right.

Kerry Kennedy:

So we have to harness that anger and use it to create change.

Sam Saperstein:

And that power that she harnessed from that anger is extraordinary.

Kerry Kennedy:

Yes, incredible. And I see that again and again. You know, it's not rage, it's anger at injustice and that's what we need.

Sam Saperstein:

About a fair world, to try to find a better outcome. So what else do you do when you're in situations around the world and you're working against governments to improve the lives of women, children and others?

Kerry Kennedy:

One of the main things we do is we sue governments. So we sue governments throughout Latin America and Africa. We have about 35 cases at any given moment. We do a lot of work on femicide. Femicide is gender-based homicide and it's an endemic problem, particularly in Central America. So the statistics on rape and murder, you know, the combination of rape and murder and the number of successful prosecutions is less than 5% over 30 years in Guatemala. And so we took the case on behalf of the family of a woman who had been raped and murdered and we sued the government of Guatemala and we won. And as a result of that, they had to take a series of steps to create change. So they had to apologize, a public apology to the family, make reparations to the family and that, in and of itself, is a big deal. Then they had to put street lights up in certain parts of cities.

Sam Saperstein:

To make places safer.

Kerry Kennedy:

Then they had to buy a certain number of rape crisis kits and use them and prove that they've used them within a certain amount of time. Then they had to hire a certain number of women police officers and train them in victim witness advocacy. Then they started a call-in number for women who've been disappeared.

Sam Saperstein:

Such substantial actions.

Kerry Kennedy:

Yeah, they're really concrete and it's making a difference. So we feel good about things like that.

Sam Saperstein:

And do you look to take those lessons and those things that you're having them do to other countries and really try to use that as a model?

Kerry Kennedy:

Here's the great thing about this system. So there's a Supreme Court which sits above the Supreme Courts of all the countries in Latin America and the Caribbean, and that's where we try the cases. So the cases have implications-

Sam Saperstein:

Broadly.

Kerry Kennedy:

... for all of Latin America.

Sam Saperstein:

That's great.

Kerry Kennedy:

And there's a similar court in Africa, which looks to the Latin American courts and the Latin Americans look to the African courts for precedent. So this really has broad implications.

Sam Saperstein:

I love how you thought about that practically. So you did it in a very broad way, but then looked to replicate that model in another region. What do you think lessons are that we could extract from that to continue to help women and other people with their human rights around the world?

Kerry Kennedy:

Let's start with help, because I think the way you see this is really a partnership. We believe that the people who are closest to the problem are closest to the solution. So we start really with talking to women who have been victims and to their families. What are you doing? What do you think you need? How would you like to have a society in which you are safe and which you can flourish? What are your needs to get there? And that's how we come up with the solutions, so I think that's the first thing. And then really focusing on cases that have implications beyond the boundaries of that particular country.

Sam Saperstein:

And then does the center take all that learning to educate others on how they can do this?

Kerry Kennedy:

Yes, absolutely. So we have a human rights education program, which will be available to about 35 million students across the world this year. It goes kindergarten through law school. We don't go into classrooms and say, we want to teach human rights. We say to teachers, what are the concrete things you are responsible for teaching your students? And then we make up lesson plans to go along with them. So would you like an example?

Sam Saperstein:

Sure. I'd love to know how do you do that, especially with younger children?

Kerry Kennedy:

So for kids who are 12 years old, they're in eighth grade, they have to learn language arts. So when I was a kid, it was called English, but now it's language arts. And so we give them two or three articles about the manufacturer of chocolate. That's 70% of the chocolate consumed in the United States and the EU and Japan is made by children in slavery or child labor.

Sam Saperstein:

Didn't know that.

Kerry Kennedy:

Yeah, exactly. So most people are very shocked by that. So they read the articles and then they have to write a poem called Dear Bobby, explaining what it feels like to be a child in slavery-

Sam Saperstein:

Put themselves in that.

Kerry Kennedy:

... making chocolate. So, that is text analysis. It's social emotional learning. They're learning compassion and it's poetry. They write it and I [inaudible 00:11:56]. Then a few weeks later, they have to do expository writing. So we give them the same three articles and we give them the names and addresses of the CEOs of Godiva, Hershey's and Mars.

Sam Saperstein:

So now they're doing activism, writing to these companies.

Kerry Kennedy:

Now they're learning activism. They're translating something that was an emotional issue into a fact-based argument, and they're learning, where do you put the stamp? Where do you put the return address? How do you write a business letter? So social text analysis, social emotional learning, translating from emotion to fact, and then the business letter, which the teacher must teach. Then the last part of that lesson, we give them a five by eight index card. They consolidate their thoughts, write out the problem in one sentence and scotch tape a piece of fair trade chocolate saying, "There's a solution, fair trade chocolate." And then on Halloween, they do reverse trick or treat. So when somebody gives them a piece of chocolate, they say, "Thank you so much. Can I give you this?"

Sam Saperstein:

So, fair trade chocolate. That's amazing.

Kerry Kennedy:

Yeah, and the card explaining the problem and saying, here's the solution.

Sam Saperstein:

So I bet they walk away learning things they never thought about before, in such a detailed way.

Kerry Kennedy:

Exactly. And then for the teachers, it makes learning fun and interesting and expository writing. God, who wants to do that? Suddenly it's great.

Sam Saperstein:

And the parents must love it, too. That's amazing.

Kerry Kennedy:

Well, yeah.

Sam Saperstein:

It's so interesting. Tell me about how you work with women and minorities who are starting businesses or who are investing themselves?

Kerry Kennedy:

As a human rights organization, we really wanted to be impactful on the S, in E-S-G. That's social. So environmental, social, governance, when you're thinking about sustainability. So somebody said to us, you should go to the investors in those big businesses. So, most of the time you think about a supply chain is going from the CEO, to maybe manager, down to the person who's in the factory making it good. But we think of it as going from the factory, to the manager, to the CEO, to the private equity company, investing in that company, to the major fund, the pension fund, or the sovereign wealth fund, or the university endowment that's investing in the private equity company.

Sam Saperstein:

Right, right.

Kerry Kennedy:

And so we're saying to those investors, what are you doing on a wide range of issues that touch on human rights? One of those is women and minority-owned firms in the investment industry. So now think about this. We brought together the 30 largest university endowments in the United States, and we did this with the Stern School of Business, Mike Posner there. These are institutions that are devoted at their core values-

Sam Saperstein:

Right, for what they do.

Kerry Kennedy:

... of diversity, equity & inclusion, universities.

Sam Saperstein:

A great place to start.

Kerry Kennedy:

And we said to them, what percentage of your endowments are invested by women and minority-owned firms, not in women and minority-owned companies, by women and minorities?

Sam Saperstein:

Yeah, who's making the decisions, basically?

Kerry Kennedy:

Right. And you know what the answer was? Less than 2%.

Sam Saperstein:

Ugh, that's shocking.

Kerry Kennedy:

Less than 2%. This is Alabama in 1956. It's completely unacceptable.

Sam Saperstein:

Were they surprised to see that data? Had they ever really looked at that before?

Kerry Kennedy:

Most of them haven't collected the data, but our question to them is, where are you today? Where do you want to be five years from now? What are the obstacles in your way? How can we work together? What are best practices in creating that change? But you know, the university endowments are just the first part. Statistically, here we are in Davos, it's 1.3% of investment dollars, is controlled by women and minority-owned firms. So what does that mean? That's the way I think about it. If you're an investor, and you're an old white man, which is, 98 point, whatever it is, eight of them, and two companies come to you and say, invest in us. One of them is from Harlem and the other is from Park Avenue. And you look at the Park Avenue person and say, "My bonus is dependent on this. My obligation to my corporation is to get the returns on the dollars, and I'm going to go with the person that's always done it before. And I'm comfortable with it and I understand this, and I'm going to do this."

Kerry Kennedy:

And I don't even know how to get to Harlem, so I'm not going there. And as a result, the Park Avenue guys get wealthier and wealthier, and those companies get wealthier and wealthier, and more and more powerful. And women and minority-owned companies and communities are increasingly marginalized.

Sam Saperstein:

Never again.

Kerry Kennedy:

And so that's increasing the power imbalance in our entire society, which is really skewed the wrong way.

Sam Saperstein:

Yeah, now we see more women certainly try to become investors, raise money for their own companies, so it feels like there's momentum there, in terms of number of people trying this, but the dollars still are very small. How can we make more progress with that?

Kerry Kennedy:

Well, we need this at the very highest levels. That's where it needs to start, because when you're trying to start your own shoe business or a pizza parlor or you know, small business, if this is the way it's trickling down-

Sam Saperstein:

It's very hard to stop.

Kerry Kennedy:

... it's very, very difficult, so that's why we need the sovereign wealth funds to be committed to this. We need the large pension funds to be committed to this.

Sam Saperstein:

Do you think ultimately it's an economic story for them? In other words, they can actually expect greater returns with greater diversity?

Kerry Kennedy:

Well, we know that to be true. So, statistically, actually women firms and minority-owned firms do better than white firms, so-

Sam Saperstein:

Maybe that'll make the case.

Kerry Kennedy:

So that's part of it, but there's legitimately a number of obstacles in the way, and we need to look at each one of those and to have an honest discussion about how we overcome them and create change.

Sam Saperstein:

So what progress or changes are you most excited about?

Kerry Kennedy:

I'll tell you, when I started working on human rights, it was the early 1980s. All of Latin America was under right-wing military dictatorships. Today, there's not one left standing. All of Eastern Europe was under communism. Today, there's not a communist government left. South Africa was at the height of apartheid. Today, South Africa is the head of a series of freely elected governments, elected by a majority of their people. And women's rights was not on the international agenda. And now, the women's rights convention has been ratified by, I think, 188 countries. So, I'm looking and saying, "We have made huge progress." And you know, every time I hear about some horrible new thing that I really wasn't aware of before, like for instance, here at Davos this morning, there was a panel on trafficking in the modeling business and sexual assault in the modeling business. And it was an issue I hadn't really thought about before and didn't know anything about.

Kerry Kennedy:

Every time I hear about something like that, I want to jump on my chair and say, "Hey, because the way human rights abuses take place is under cover of dark, so as soon as we start talking about them, as soon as people start becoming aware and organized around them, that's when you see the change happen." So I feel great about the future.

Sam Saperstein:

Thank you. I really appreciate hearing from you and your experience. This gives us a lot to be hopeful for.

Kerry Kennedy:

Good.

Sam Saperstein:

So, thank you very much.

Kerry Kennedy:

Thank you. Nice talking.

Sam Saperstein:

Thanks to Kerry Kennedy for giving me a glimpse into her life and her work around the world, fighting on behalf of women and children. Thank you for joining us today. The mission of Women On The Move is to help women in their professional and personal lives. Our goal is to introduce you to people with great ideas, inspiring stories, and a passion to make a difference. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe so you won't miss any others. Thank you to our partners at The Female Quotient and Magnet Media for helping us tell these stories. For JP Morgan Chase's Women On The Move, I'm Sam Saperstein.