Camilla:
As much as I enjoy work and I enjoy being busy and learning and being with my team and looking after results. The breathing is about the family.
Sam Saperstein:
Welcome back to the Women on the Move podcast from JPMorgan Chase. I'm Sam Saperstein. Women on the Move is a global initiative at the bank. It's designed to help women grow their businesses, improve their financial health and build their careers. In the last few episodes, we featured individuals who are breaking the mold. They showed us new ways to think about challenges and provided us with new and interesting perspectives. Today we'll meet another powerhouse woman, Camilla Pena. She's based in London and leads international equity sales for multiple regions. Camilla is another extraordinary example of mobility at work. She shows us how partnerships at home, at work and with peers and mentors can add up to create a rich, satisfying life. I enjoyed this conversation with Camilla very much and I think you will too. Camilla, thank you so much for joining us on our Women on the Move podcast. We really appreciate your being here.
Camilla:
Thank you, Sam. It's a true honor to be here.
Sam Saperstein:
Camilla, tell me about your role here at JPMorgan Chase today.
Camilla:
So my role at JPMorgan today is I run Latin America equity sales globally. I also run SMIA equity sales globally, CEMA being central Europe, middle East and Africa. And I also run the international cash equity sales team into EMEA.
Sam Saperstein:
How did you feel as a woman in those business areas? What was your experience starting out, but also growing your career in both parts of the business?
Camilla:
I would say that how I felt as a woman in this business has evolved over the years, as just like I think the world has evolved over the years. And what I think is the aspect that has evolved the most has just been around awareness, right? And just women issues in general. I think there's a lot more awareness today than there was 10, 15 years ago. And that awareness makes a difference in our day to day. Which means that I find myself nowadays having to, I don't really have to call out situations that I see happen around the floor. And then what I think is another situation that we continue working on and I think we're far from ideal is that, I would like to see just more women in general, specially on the sales and trading front, having senior positions and management positions out there. And I think that we've definitely improved on that front. The whole market has improved, but we're far from where we should be.
Sam Saperstein:
What would you say to women who want to do that kind of work? How would you suggest that they do that and stay in the career?
Camilla:
What I think women need to believe in is that they can have it all, this situation of women thinking that they can't have it all at the same time. I don't really agree with that. I think that your all changes as the time evolves and the all also varies person by person. My all is not the same as your all and it's not the same as somebody else that may be starting out their all, right? And my all today is not the same than my all was five 10 years ago. And so I personally think today I have it all, but in reality, five years ago I also thought I had it all.
Sam Saperstein:
We'll so tell us what all is to you now. What is your all?
Camilla:
So my all now is, I have a global management job that I run teams in eight different countries. I have a husband that is an entrepreneur that is super supportive of my job, my career and the success that I have had and also helps me out 50-50 at home.
Sam Saperstein:
Terrific.
Camilla:
And I have a 14 month old son called Noah, who is, I'd like to say one of the happiest child I've ever met, laughing all the time. And the three of us have found a way to make it work and at the same time have my husband's career, my career progress in the way that we wanted them to. And look, and I say all of this and my family lives between Mexico and Brazil. Would I love to have my family closer to me? Without a doubt, right? I mean I think everybody with that option would like to have their family closer. Maybe some friends' closer and whatnot. But again, none of this makes me think that I don't have it all. It makes my all, I'm still satisfied with the all that I have.
Sam Saperstein:
And over time when you needed to make changes with certain things, so let's say after your son was born or when you were thinking about taking a role in a different country, did you ask for certain things to make your all still possible?
Camilla:
Definitely. And by the way, I still ask for stuff today, but one example of what I asked for is, when I was four months pregnant, and I like to tell this story because you also have to be careful what you wish for. Because when I was two months pregnant and I went to tell my managers that I was pregnant, I said, by the way, if there are any opportunities that come up that you think you would offer me otherwise, please make sure that I stay top of mind here for any new opportunities that come up regardless if I'm pregnant or not. And funny enough, two months later an opportunity came up, which was to run Global SMIA and right away they got in touch with me and said, "Hey, guess what, remember what you for? Well, now there is an opportunity out there and it's a Global SMIA job. However, in order to do this job you would have to move to London.
Camilla:
And I was four months pregnant at the time, my husband was two years into his new business that he had launched and we were living in New York. And I said, we thought this through, I talked a lot about it at home and I went back to my managers and I said, "Look, I would really like to do the job, but I am in no condition right now to pick up and move to London." "So I would like to propose back to you a situation where I would take the job, do it remotely, have my son in New York, go on maternity leave, come back, find a way to get back and forth to London for a few months before officially moving there." So from the date that they started talking to me about this job until I actually moved to London a year and a half past, and yet the firm was super flexible with me to find a way to make it work.
Sam Saperstein:
So that is unbelievable first of all that you plan that out like that, but also that you asked for that, you came in thinking so clearly around timing and what you wanted at different stages and when you would be ready to go. I don't think many women would think it's possible to even ask for that. So tell us how you felt about just asking for that and how you practiced that conversation and the courage that you had to even have the conversation.
Camilla:
Having an open dialogue with your managers on a constant basis is extremely important, it has to be transparent and it has to be upfront.
Sam Saperstein:
Yeah, now that in situation you had a negotiation that was around timing of a job, moving of locations, which is a big deal. And I'm sure the managers hiring you wanted you to be there and start as soon as possible. So what did that negotiation actually look like? So you came in with a suggestion. Was that taken off the bat? Did you have to go back and forth? Tell us a little bit about the flavor of that conversation.
Camilla:
Funny enough, I think sometimes we put a lot of concern around making sure that things happen right away in time. But in reality is, we look at businesses on a longer term basis and what is one year, if you're talking about longer term, right? If you think that this is a solution where you're hoping to set a strategy or a path that will over time bring more and more returns. One year in somebody that is thinking about doing a full career or expanding a business and whatnot, actually it shouldn't be a deciding factor on whether you can make something happen or not, if you have a longer term view. So I think that that was the aspect, the approach that they took towards this as well. And in the end we were all comfortable with the decision.
Camilla:
And I gave my commitment that I would be happy to jump on a plane and be over here and use technology and video conference to be very much in touch with my teams around the world as much as possible. So that nobody would necessarily be a detriment or feel that my presence here in London or not would impact the business at all.
Sam Saperstein:
So another important message that you gave to them was the job was going to get done no matter where you were and done well.
Camilla:
Yes. Without a doubt. I like to approach my career like I would approach an investment or buying a stock basically. I want to aim towards a goal and do as much work as possible so that I have understanding of how to get to that goal and inform myself as much as possible to say that, if I'm going to go buy a stock that I know as much as I can about that stock and where I think that stock is going to go. So that at least when I buy it, I have as much informed decisions as I think is within my reach to do so. And the same in my career, that I have as much of what is in my reach to set my career path now. What happens along the way and how unforeseen conditions can affect that stock and things that are completely out of my control. How that ends up causing my investments to give me the returns that I expected, then not everything is 100% in my control.
Camilla:
Same thing with my career. As much as I set it up, as much as I study it and I aim towards a specific goal, I am very conscious that there are a lot of things I don't control. Right? And at least I can feel comfort that what I can control, I tried my best to do right? And so that's the approach that I take. Sometimes positions were given to me faster than I expected, other times they happened because of situations that were unforeseen. But in reality is, I don't particularly believe in luck. I think that a lot of this you have to map out and go after and set out for yourself.
Sam Saperstein:
Yeah. Nobody's coming to tap you on the shoulder necessarily. Right. You have to go out there and make your intentions known and obviously work very hard. And get the attention of others that you want to work with
Camilla:
To give a specific example on the challenges. I think early on in my career I very much wanted a lot of my team to basically learn from best practices and how I did things and maybe replicate a certain style of how I was. And over the years I've found that there's a lot of value in diversity. Not every, the way I do things is always going to be the right way, right? And not, and it shouldn't be expected that people necessarily will learn by only observing and following best practices. Each individual is different and each individual learns in a different way. So I would say that I definitely had a lot of challenges early on in terms of learning how to not only accept different viewpoints but learn how to engage them and maximize them and bring them to the table. And encourage people to bring different, diverse views on how to approach different situations.
Sam Saperstein:
So when you see a team member around the table who's a little quieter but you know they have something good to contribute, what will you do to help bring out that perspective?
Camilla:
There are several quiet people, believe it or not, around my team, and it's really about providing enough tools so that regardless of your personality, you have a way to speak up. I think it's misconstrued to think that if you don't have an outgoing and outspoken personality, you won't necessarily do well in an environment like that.
Sam Saperstein:
I think that's really helpful for people thinking about a career like that and thinking about what personalities they assume might be better suited. That's not necessarily the case, so that's really helpful. When it comes to clients and the clients that you've served in different markets, do you feel like your gender ever played a role in your client relationships?
Camilla:
The way that I approach my client relationships, I never really think about the fact, am I a woman? Am I a man? How is this going to make a difference in my relationship or how I approach. And I think that that has actually played more to my benefit than to my detriment, because at the same time that I don't feel uncomfortable going out to dinner, me and a woman to talk about a specific investment or share market ideas. I also don't feel uncomfortable going out to dinner myself and a male to talk about investments in a marketing situation. I basically have the same approach regardless of the gender. I find myself in situations where I just want to be the best professional to the client that I have. Now, having said all of that, I am mindful that we have to create an environment in where both male and female feel like they have the same opportunities to grow in a business like sales and trade.
Camilla:
And so that is what we've been working on in terms of creating better awareness and just making sure that our clients and our peers don't find themselves in a situation where it would make a difference if they were dealing with a male or a female in a certain situation.
Sam Saperstein:
All right, so let's switch gears now and talk about your day to day and how this all comes together. I am assuming you're a pretty organized person or that you and your husband have some pretty good communication skills to figure out who's doing what at what time. What are your conversations with him look like on a basis? If you're, it's Sunday afternoon and you're planning the week ahead, tell us what happens at home.
Camilla:
I'm definitely more organized than my husband, that I will tell you, but he likes to say that I am the best multi-tasker he knows-
Sam Saperstein:
Fantastic.
Camilla:
At the same time. So it is all about multitasking, right? It's being able to do a lot at the same time, but a conversation between my husband and I is usually around making sure that we have our week planned out on Sunday. We plan out what the week will look like because me and him travel so much. We have pretty much set within the next 30 to 45 days what our travel is going to look like. Several times we try to meet up around the world. For example, we were just in New York last week and it was my husband's turn to take the baby with him on the flight. And then I was already in New York and we met up in New York, the three of us.
Sam Saperstein:
Great.
Camilla:
Yes. So we do that a lot and I would say that my one year old has a lot of frequent flyer miles.
Sam Saperstein:
Already has a passport.
Camilla:
Already has a passport, definitely. But that's what our Sundays usually look like. We both play sports, we like to play tennis, so we try to fit that in at some point during the week, we like to go out to dinner and spend time with our son. And so it is a day to day that would look pretty normal I would say in a family. I think the only addition to that is that we do have to plan out a lot of what our coming days will look like to make sure that we are coordinated.
Sam Saperstein:
What happens when it breaks down? Tell me about the balls that you've dropped and how did you handle that?
Camilla:
Yeah, look, it breaks down. I mean there are moments where it becomes challenging and I'm going to say at the end of the day, we're all human beings, right? We get tired. There are times that I have come back from trips that I just basically look forward to my calendar and I have so many trips planned and I say, you know what? Which one of these trips do I not have to do? And then I make a decision of if I can cancel one or another may be, I'll just have to do that. Right. And take a break for myself. I definitely make sure to put in holidays in the calendar and those are, we don't like to manage around them and just make sure that we stay sane. Because where it broke down for me a bit was in the beginning of the year, for example, when we moved from New York to London, at some point I was handling all the paperwork of the move, finding a new house.
Camilla:
I have two dogs, bringing the baby over. We transitioned nannies, my husband was in the middle of his end of the year in his restaurant, which is very busy and I was assuming a new team and we had to move over from New York to London. It broke down a little bit. Right. I have to admit.
Sam Saperstein:
Wow, okay. What'd you do to relax?
Camilla:
We just have to remember to breathe.
Sam Saperstein:
Right. And so what does that look like for you? What does breathing look like? Because most normal people I think would maybe have a panic attack.
Camilla:
Yeah. Breathing for me, I like to do yoga when I can. It really is about spending time with my family. That's really the breathing for me. As much as I enjoy work and I enjoy being busy and learning and being with my team and looking after results, the breathing is about the family. Right. And it's about spending the time with the people that I love at home and making sure that I have enough of a balanced environment where, again, where I feel like I have it all. That's my breathing.
Sam Saperstein:
What would you tell women who are looking to explore a career in banking or in any of the particular aspects of banking that you've been specialized in? What would you say to them?
Camilla:
I would say to the women that are looking to explore careers in banking, that it's an absolutely amazing place to work. With opportunities, it is an environment that is set up to allow women to thrive and to really have space to create their stories. I think the most important part in having a career that you feel proud of is having space to create a story that you're proud of. And banking is a place that allows you to do that. And I would remind the women that you can have it all. You just have to remember not to compare your all and to be okay with the fact that your all is going to evolve and change throughout time.
Sam Saperstein:
That's great. I love the way you put that. I think everybody definitely does define an all in a different way, but often they look to others and look to see what someone else's all is. And so that can be quite challenging to keep it together for yourself. So two things to go back to. One is, you mentioned the day to day at work is so exciting. There's a lot of activity plus you cover emerging markets, which can be volatile. So can you contrast your day, your day job to coming home? Is it calmer there? How do you come down from those highs and be with your family and be present?
Camilla:
So I will tell you a story. I decided to name my son Noah because Noah means calm. So I was automatically trying to hedge something between my life at work and my life at home by naming my son something that meant calm. The reality is I am by nature not very calm and neither is my husband. So we found that maybe this would help us out.
Sam Saperstein:
Remind you, yes every time you tuck him.
Camilla:
Remind us. But the work is hectic, emerging market is hectic, the travel is hectic, we do have very active days. Now in reality at home, I would love to say that our day to day is calm, but I would be lying. My husband and I, we love to entertain. We have friends over all the time-
Sam Saperstein:
And he cooks, I'm assuming.
Camilla:
He's a fantastic cook. I can't look for my life.
Sam Saperstein:
Then it's a good match.
Camilla:
So it's really nice that at least I have a good match there. And in reality that we like to be very active with our son as well. So we take him to the park, we have two dogs, we walk around all the time with him. So it's not necessarily a home lifestyle at home I would say, but it fits our personality. So we're just very active.
Sam Saperstein:
And you've talked about your family as a team, the three of you, but I will include the dogs in there as part of the family. So this works well for you. Have you found that this is just the right model?
Camilla:
Yes, this is the team. Of course, I get asked a lot whether the team will eventually grow and we haven't made that decision yet. We're very happy with the team as it is today and it's working for us now. And if that ever changes then life is life. But I will say that we were a team when it was just the two of us, me and my husband, and then it was a team of four with the dogs and now we're a team of five and it has been a spectacular ride along always.
Sam Saperstein:
I love that. So Camilla, thank you so much for sharing all your insights, your wonderful career with us. We really appreciate hearing how you do it globally. I think it's a little daunting to be honest, but I think the way you have just approached so many things with just great humility and some good humor is really appreciated. So thank you.
Camilla:
Thank you very much and I am very honored to be part of this podcast and thank you very much for being such an extraordinary moderator as well. And once again reiterating how happy I am to have been part of this firm for so many years.
Sam Saperstein:
Thank you so much. I hope you found Camilla as interesting as I did. Her enthusiasm for life and commitment to people just shines through. It's been so interesting for me to see how each of our guests has forged their own path and made their own high powered careers work for them. As always, thank you for joining us today. Women on the Move exists because all of us at JPMorgan Chase want to see women be successful in business and life. Our goal is to introduce you to people with great ideas, inspiring stories, and a passion to make a difference. We hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll explore the whole series for JPMorgan Chase's Women on the Move. I'm Sam Saperstein.
